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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with Kevin Williams creator of the

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near-death com website I think it's a

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real mistake to underestimate the appeal

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of the materialist reductionist

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philosophy so just because a few people

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have written best-selling books and made

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it on to the Oprah circuit if you will

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that doesn't mean that there's going to

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be an end to the the war machine or the

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depleted uranium that we're going to

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shoot over in Syria or the only thing I

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can conclude is that it's about personal

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transformation and it's about embracing

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that and in the process of embracing

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that then I think trying to come in

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contact with other people and create

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that community well right now we see

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both sides religions and hardcore

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scientists materialists are kicking and

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screaming but this point of merger is is

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happening right now especially and I

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think in quantum physics when you know

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you can't there's a mystical aspect to

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it that can't really be denied the

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materialists and religionists are

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kicking and screaming but I see a day

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where there'll be no more faith involved

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because the new knowledge will come in

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that is inescapable yeah I mean you will

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be the religious person will have to

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abandon whatever erroneous face they

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have or their dogma

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and the same with the scientists stay

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Icarus and on this

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episode of skeptic oh I have an

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interview with Kevin Williams from

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near-death calm Kevin does an absolutely

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great job on the near-death website it's

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a valuable resource with a lot of good

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information I always seem to run across

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it when I'm looking for information on a

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near-death experience researcher or a

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particular topic it always seems to pop

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up at just the right time so I was

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interested in finding out more about the

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guy behind the website and I managed to

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get Kevin to agree to sit down and talk

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to me for a little while here's my

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interview with Kevin Williams today we

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welcome Kevin Williams - skeptic Oh

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Kevin is the creator of near-death calm

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probably almost definitely the number

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one website

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near-death experiences both in terms of

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visitor traffic and in terms of the

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comprehensive amount of information

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about near-death experiences near-death

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research and all topics related to this

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amazing phenomena Kevin is also the

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author of nothing better than death

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insights from 62 near-death experiences

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Kevin welcome to skeptic oh thanks so

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much for joining me

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well thank you alex is my pleasure so as

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I just mentioned the near death and

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that's near - death calm is amazingly

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comprehensive it pops up virtually

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hundreds if not thousands of different

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search terms so people even if they're

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not familiar with the website have

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probably encountered it start us off

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from the beginning tell us how you

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started it why you started it and the

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driving force behind it first of all I'm

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a big believer in synchronicity and it

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seems like most of my life I've had that

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when I was a kid I my dad had a small

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CRT screen and for some reason I knew

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that I could

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and ask questions to it and get answered

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back and I just had that in my mind for

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a long time I don't know why but then

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when I went to college I took computer

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science and I graduated just about the

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time when the internet was taking off

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and before that time I read Raymond

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Moody's book life after life and now I

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read that in the seventh late 70s and

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since then I couldn't get enough reading

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books to read on the subject and so it

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was kind of a synchronistic time that I

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just happened to learn how to build

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websites at a time when I was fully

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knowledgeable about near-death

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experiences and a time when I was able

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to do it to build a website so I started

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really early and part of the reason why

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I get a lot of hits on different

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keywords is because I designed my

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website as a portal which means that

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there's usually only two or three levels

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deep in my website and I built it that

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way specifically so that would it would

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do that it would have the ability to

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access a lot of information right up

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front and also it would be a lot easier

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to navigate mm-hmm so Kevin you did not

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have a near-death experience prior to

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starting this is that right yes that's

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true I've never had a near-death

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experience and but once you read enough

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of them you almost feel like this is

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information that you've known before and

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in fact not a near-death experiencers

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during their experience they received

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knowledge like that that forgotten

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knowledge and the more I read about it

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the more I realized that this is true

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for me and that everybody is actually

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experienced death many times through

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reincarnation and so that was

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the part of the part of it right there

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so so you're open to the idea that there

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might be a form of knowledge that is

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hidden consciously but still spurred

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your interest which is fantastic I'm

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open to that as well

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but I do think it's interesting and it's

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been my approach on the skeptic Osho is

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that you know you can really approach

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this topic from a purely intellectual

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scientific standpoint and kind of get to

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the same place you know and to me it's

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always baffling that more people don't

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question either on one side or the other

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this information so as you point out you

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know you read Raymond Moody's book it

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would seem that those kind of

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earth-shattering claims would force more

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people to say hey I have to decide one

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way or another I have to either

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investigate this and prove to myself

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that it's totally a bunch of bunk or I

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have to roll up my sleeves and really

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dig in there and say well there is

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something more

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does that ever cross your mind are you

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surprised that more people aren't

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engaged in really finding out the truth

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and are willing to just kind of take

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such high-level answers of it it must

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all be fake or it must all be true you

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know I haven't really thought that much

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about that on that perception but I do

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agree that people who aren't predisposed

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to that kind of information like for

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example I became a born-again Christian

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and late seventies around the time after

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or before I read Raymond Moody's book so

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I was eager to to learn about

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spirituality at the time I read Moody

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and I was especially interested in Bible

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prophecy as I read more or more about

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near-death experiences I discovered that

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doesn't jive with a lot of the stuff

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that I learned as a fundamentalist

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despairity grew over the years you might

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say and it actually was became part of

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this crisis that I had in 89 loves

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diagnosed bipolar

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it wasn't like a leap of faith but I

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needed something to translate my

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fundamentalism to a more Universal

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position which is in the near-death

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phenomenon and so one thing that has

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helped me a lot was I started reading

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Edgar Cayce and he of course was the

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perfect bridge for me to understand how

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Christianity in its mystical form is

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equal and practically identical to what

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the near-death experiences say let's

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talk about that for a minute first I

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think it's very brave of you to disclose

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that and anyone who goes to near-death

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calm will find first of all a very

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logical thoughtful rational explanation

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of near-death experience linked to many

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many of the major figures research all

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laid out very logical form at pointing

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to a lot of research not a lot of the

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stuff that you're talking about that a

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lot of people will find very

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controversial so I just want folks to

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know that but then I want to switch into

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this other topic that you're talking

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about because I think it's fascinating I

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think it's very brave of you to talk

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about it and I think you know there's

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such an oppressive push for normalcy in

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so many of these discussions I don't

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consider my bipolar disorder a negative

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thing anymore

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because for one thing my psychiatrist

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told me that the only difference between

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someone who is psychic and one who is

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psychotic

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is that the psychic can deal with the

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voices and the faces and hallucinations

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but the psychotic can't partly because

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of a lot of the experience I had and I

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still do that as a bipolar disorder that

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I'm able to have a lot of synchronicity

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a lot of after death communications

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happen to me especially when my mother

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died in 2001 she died in a car accident

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and what happened was after she passed

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away almost immediately we started

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receive my whole family started

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receiving these synchronicities almost

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about like signs from heaven that she

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was trying to communicate with us two

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days after my mom died I had a dream

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that became lucid and all of a sudden I

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saw her there in sitting in a in

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accounts like in a waiting room like a

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lot of people see in near-death

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experiences we I you know it was

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immediately loose and I told her that I

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was somehow surprised I was if she was

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not GAD and she she mentioned that she

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hadn't contacted my brother yet and so

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the next day I called my sister up and

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she had virtually the same dream as I

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had lose it and everything and ever

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since that time especially around the

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time we had a memorial of her and her

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her funeral and the anniver or her death

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anniversary we would receive these

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synchronicities all the time and it was

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especially important to me because I

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knew what was going on and it's such a

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son will experience that if you're not

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aware what it is you might easily

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dismiss it as just nothing I just had an

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interview not too long ago with a guy

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named Steve Miller he's written a really

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nice introductory book to near-death

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experience and his point I was kind of

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pushing him on the Christian angle and

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doesn't near-death experience science

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and the experience itself doesn't it

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contradict Christian doctrine in some

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ways and we got talking about that and

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he really pushed back and you say Alex

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what you don't understand

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is that most people out there who hear

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about near-death experience don't

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understand even that there's science

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behind it they think it's all anecdotal

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and I had to take a step back because I

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think I've so immersed in the scientific

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aspect of that that to realize that he's

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right and I think that's what your

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website really addresses doesn't it is

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that there is science behind this there

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are real researchers who don't have an

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axe to grind who are just out there I've

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run across this amazing phenomenon so I

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don't want to get to the bottom of it

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and that's what I think you really try

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and bring to the to the forefront with

276
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near-death calm isn't it it's just that

277
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there's a lot of science behind this

278
00:13:57,210 --> 00:13:53,550
phenomena but originally my focus was to

279
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help fundamentalist Christians ease over

280
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into the transition of the universalism

281
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that the near-death experience asked my

282
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:07,900
transition was somewhat difficult like I

283
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said because of the bipolar disorder

284
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I've run across this with a number of

285
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people who've been on this show who

286
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:16,630
don't have bipolar disorder or don't

287
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have it in their family but still go

288
00:14:24,030 --> 00:14:21,339
through a major upset I like on your

289
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:24,040
website how you reference PMH Atwater

290
00:14:29,070 --> 00:14:27,010
who's probably one of the more open

291
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researchers in terms of dealing with

292
00:14:33,090 --> 00:14:31,180
this and saying hey a lot of these

293
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people go through this near-death

294
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experience or spiritually transformative

295
00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:38,740
experience and it opens them up in a way

296
00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:42,880
that is extremely unsettling for their

297
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mental health and and I yeah we we can't

298
00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:48,520
sweep that under the rug and say oh you

299
00:14:54,930 --> 00:14:51,820
know this is only for people with this

300
00:14:56,940 --> 00:14:54,940
certain biological predisposition that

301
00:15:00,510 --> 00:14:56,950
this is going to upset their life

302
00:15:03,450 --> 00:15:00,520
it should upsetting your worldview and

303
00:15:06,090 --> 00:15:03,460
shattering it is going to could can be

304
00:15:09,420 --> 00:15:06,100
very dramatic and and furthermore I

305
00:15:12,030 --> 00:15:09,430
think we have to contrast that with the

306
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:12,040
way that a lot of atheists and skeptical

307
00:15:16,980 --> 00:15:14,410
people in our lives that we all know

308
00:15:17,879 --> 00:15:16,990
about handle it because when we've run

309
00:15:19,859 --> 00:15:17,889
into that

310
00:15:22,759 --> 00:15:19,869
we see the opposite of that I have

311
00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:22,769
several friends who are just incredibly

312
00:15:29,519 --> 00:15:26,470
resistant to this information because

313
00:15:31,889 --> 00:15:29,529
they feel like I get the sense I should

314
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:31,899
say I get the sense is that they feel

315
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:34,720
like they can't deal with it on that

316
00:15:39,539 --> 00:15:36,970
level they really don't want to deal

317
00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:39,549
with that kind of upset in their

318
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:41,529
worldview and I think there's a lot of

319
00:15:45,119 --> 00:15:42,970
Christians that are coming at it from

320
00:15:46,139 --> 00:15:45,129
the exact same way it's like don't you

321
00:15:48,689 --> 00:15:46,149
dare threaten me

322
00:15:50,819 --> 00:15:48,699
I got everything working in a way that I

323
00:15:52,489 --> 00:15:50,829
can at least manage it don't you dare

324
00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:52,499
tell me this stuff isn't true

325
00:15:59,489 --> 00:15:55,809
yeah and again it is it is I think

326
00:16:01,530 --> 00:15:59,499
having a when you're in first encounter

327
00:16:04,079 --> 00:16:01,540
near death that near-death phenomena I

328
00:16:07,769 --> 00:16:04,089
start reading it I think it is important

329
00:16:10,229 --> 00:16:07,779
that you have some form both on the one

330
00:16:15,449 --> 00:16:10,239
hand on the right hand I guess you might

331
00:16:19,499 --> 00:16:15,459
say happy a have some form of religious

332
00:16:23,369 --> 00:16:19,509
background or are open to the idea you

333
00:16:24,809 --> 00:16:23,379
know an afterlife and and deal with that

334
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:24,819
but then on the other hand you have

335
00:16:31,710 --> 00:16:27,910
science which is I mean heart some

336
00:16:35,340 --> 00:16:31,720
scientists are just as dogmatic as you

337
00:16:39,689 --> 00:16:35,350
know fundamentalist Christians and in

338
00:16:43,139 --> 00:16:39,699
that sense I've also tried to the

339
00:16:47,150 --> 00:16:43,149
scientist in me try to appeal to them as

340
00:16:50,850 --> 00:16:47,160
well and I do agree that that people

341
00:16:53,419 --> 00:16:50,860
want to hold on to their belief

342
00:16:55,919 --> 00:16:53,429
especially when it comes to death and

343
00:16:59,999 --> 00:16:55,929
you know and as you know in today's

344
00:17:02,879 --> 00:17:00,009
society you know guess is always the

345
00:17:04,649 --> 00:17:02,889
enemy you're gonna push it away and you

346
00:17:06,439 --> 00:17:04,659
know look in the olden days everybody

347
00:17:10,529 --> 00:17:06,449
you know knew look what it was about

348
00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:10,539
people died at home all the time and but

349
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:14,760
it is it's earth-shattering view and

350
00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:16,240
that's why I

351
00:17:21,389 --> 00:17:20,079
I always believe that that you know you

352
00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:21,399
don't have to have a near-death

353
00:17:28,379 --> 00:17:25,120
experience to have to feel the benefits

354
00:17:31,790 --> 00:17:28,389
and Ken ring writes extensively about

355
00:17:34,730 --> 00:17:31,800
this that how people are trance

356
00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:34,740
formed from this but you do have to

357
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:37,260
approach it with an open mind and too

358
00:17:42,670 --> 00:17:40,010
many people on the far-right

359
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:42,680
fundamentalist and on the far-right

360
00:17:49,070 --> 00:17:46,410
scientists are not open-minded the

361
00:17:50,660 --> 00:17:49,080
somewhere open not open-minded but you

362
00:17:54,590 --> 00:17:50,670
have to approach it with an open mind

363
00:17:59,830 --> 00:17:54,600
otherwise the people just turn off right

364
00:18:03,290 --> 00:17:59,840
away and my goal and is in essence is to

365
00:18:05,660 --> 00:18:03,300
try to help people in that transition

366
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:05,670
wanna transition back and I want to talk

367
00:18:12,490 --> 00:18:09,600
about your transition from being a

368
00:18:15,620 --> 00:18:12,500
fundamentalist Christian to being this

369
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:15,630
universal love kind of guy I know that

370
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:17,970
sounds very new agey but I think it's

371
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:20,160
another important point that I want to

372
00:18:25,820 --> 00:18:22,110
talk about here because it's something

373
00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:25,830
that again in this effort to legitimize

374
00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:27,990
whatever that means near-death

375
00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:31,470
experience science it's so often glossed

376
00:18:39,530 --> 00:18:34,400
over and that is that the overwhelming

377
00:18:41,570 --> 00:18:39,540
evidence of the the overwhelming aspect

378
00:18:43,730 --> 00:18:41,580
of the phenomena that comes through once

379
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:43,740
you accept that there is some reality to

380
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:46,080
this near-death experience the number

381
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:47,910
one aspect of the phenomenon for people

382
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:50,880
is love and this unbelievable

383
00:18:56,180 --> 00:18:54,240
all-encompassing love and so tell us

384
00:18:58,490 --> 00:18:56,190
about the transition that you go through

385
00:19:00,440 --> 00:18:58,500
and you do it in a very logical fashion

386
00:19:04,130 --> 00:19:00,450
and again folks this is not the main

387
00:19:06,290 --> 00:19:04,140
focus of the near-death calm website or

388
00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:06,300
of Kevin's book that we're going to talk

389
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:08,760
about for a minute but it's one thing

390
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:10,890
that I found very interesting and that's

391
00:19:17,810 --> 00:19:14,970
your deconstruction of Christianity as

392
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:17,820
it's commonly understood and practiced

393
00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:21,930
and how you resolve that with what we're

394
00:19:26,980 --> 00:19:23,700
understanding from the near-death

395
00:19:29,510 --> 00:19:26,990
experience phenomena well I have a real

396
00:19:32,990 --> 00:19:29,520
compassion for fundamentalists like I

397
00:19:36,460 --> 00:19:33,000
said I was one once I know I know them

398
00:19:39,050 --> 00:19:36,470
what is the problem if you will with

399
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:39,060
near-death experience for the

400
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:40,890
fundamentalist Christian where's the rub

401
00:19:47,570 --> 00:19:44,250
in that the rub is mainly is

402
00:19:51,550 --> 00:19:47,580
I'm having a strong belief in the devil

403
00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:51,560
a lot of Christians are reluctant to

404
00:19:57,620 --> 00:19:55,710
embrace any kind of spirituality you

405
00:19:59,840 --> 00:19:57,630
know having to do with spirits and stuff

406
00:20:04,340 --> 00:19:59,850
I even though the Bible is filled with

407
00:20:07,610 --> 00:20:04,350
you know dream phenomenon and spirits

408
00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:07,620
and prophecy you do on your website go

409
00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:09,510
through this deconstruction of

410
00:20:14,270 --> 00:20:12,030
Christianity in great detail you pull in

411
00:20:18,290 --> 00:20:14,280
a lot of good information that people

412
00:20:20,180 --> 00:20:18,300
will find very compelling and a reason

413
00:20:21,310 --> 00:20:20,190
to follow up on but you come to the

414
00:20:23,890 --> 00:20:21,320
conclusion from your website

415
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:23,900
Christianity as taught by Jesus

416
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:27,210
resembles Tibetan Buddhism more than it

417
00:20:32,780 --> 00:20:30,210
does fundamentalist Christians Kevin I

418
00:20:35,390 --> 00:20:32,790
got it wonder doesn't this I know you're

419
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:35,400
trying if you say you feel a compassion

420
00:20:40,010 --> 00:20:38,010
and a great heart for fundamentalist

421
00:20:42,170 --> 00:20:40,020
Christians I can't imagine a lot of

422
00:20:45,890 --> 00:20:42,180
fundamentalist Christians receiving that

423
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:45,900
very well yeah I agree with that the

424
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:49,890
main point is that I like to have

425
00:20:56,450 --> 00:20:53,730
Christians understand is that if they do

426
00:21:01,180 --> 00:20:56,460
a look into the early history of

427
00:21:03,620 --> 00:21:01,190
Christianity and especially the recent

428
00:21:06,980 --> 00:21:03,630
discredited ly recent discoveries of the

429
00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:06,990
Dead Sea Scrolls and and the Gnostic

430
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:10,110
Gospels found discovered and heed Egypt

431
00:21:15,890 --> 00:21:14,010
not long after that that there was a lot

432
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:15,900
of things that are cut out of the Bible

433
00:21:21,740 --> 00:21:20,010
and for different reasons for they

434
00:21:25,910 --> 00:21:21,750
didn't like pre-existence or

435
00:21:29,470 --> 00:21:25,920
reincarnation and that stuff but I try

436
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:29,480
to appeal a little bit to the history a

437
00:21:35,870 --> 00:21:32,880
aspect of Christianity and that modern

438
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:35,880
Christianity is is certainly not what it

439
00:21:40,940 --> 00:21:38,370
started out to be yeah but but the

440
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:40,950
problem gets even worse than that for

441
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:43,890
early Christianity because as you

442
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:45,330
mentioned on your website and we won't

443
00:21:50,990 --> 00:21:48,210
get into that whole Paul versus James

444
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:51,000
Jesus's brother but anyone who's serious

445
00:21:57,020 --> 00:21:54,570
about this needs to go there and analyze

446
00:21:57,590 --> 00:21:57,030
that but I think the big takeaway from

447
00:21:58,940 --> 00:21:57,600
me and

448
00:22:01,279 --> 00:21:58,950
appreciate that you're trying to kind of

449
00:22:04,010 --> 00:22:01,289
spoon feed this into a Christian

450
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:04,020
Sensibility but it really throws open

451
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:07,440
the whole idea of Scripture the whole

452
00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:11,490
idea of the historical or the historical

453
00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:14,340
accuracy of Christianity and where I

454
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:17,280
think it leaves us grasping for creating

455
00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:21,090
our own truth our own wisdom and in that

456
00:22:25,940 --> 00:22:23,460
sense I think it brings us back to okay

457
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:25,950
what can I understand about what is

458
00:22:31,220 --> 00:22:28,770
happening to people right now in these

459
00:22:33,529 --> 00:22:31,230
near-death experiences or in these other

460
00:22:35,870 --> 00:22:33,539
spiritually transformative experiences

461
00:22:38,870 --> 00:22:35,880
isn't there a problem in trying to

462
00:22:40,669 --> 00:22:38,880
completely reconcile this stuff because

463
00:22:43,370 --> 00:22:40,679
I don't think once we deconstruct it we

464
00:22:45,919 --> 00:22:43,380
can really put it back in a way that

465
00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:45,929
makes sense and say oh gee if we just go

466
00:22:50,029 --> 00:22:48,780
back to the original scripture then

467
00:22:51,710 --> 00:22:50,039
everything's okay

468
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:51,720
well no everything isn't okay there's

469
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:54,090
still a lot of myth making going on

470
00:22:59,630 --> 00:22:56,010
there there's still a lot of strange

471
00:23:03,169 --> 00:22:59,640
connections to Buddhism to ancient

472
00:23:06,110 --> 00:23:03,179
Egyptian traditions other accretion

473
00:23:08,899 --> 00:23:06,120
traditions I mean it's not a clean cut

474
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:08,909
to try and say oh if we just go back to

475
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:11,760
the Gnostics then everything's okay yeah

476
00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:16,110
the best way I try to handle this for

477
00:23:21,049 --> 00:23:19,049
the Christian is to help them understand

478
00:23:22,610 --> 00:23:21,059
that they're so well it's obvious

479
00:23:25,549 --> 00:23:22,620
there's so many different brands of

480
00:23:28,039 --> 00:23:25,559
Christianity just like it wasn't users

481
00:23:29,870 --> 00:23:28,049
day or after him and some of those sects

482
00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:29,880
we couldn't in some of those sects we

483
00:23:34,940 --> 00:23:33,000
can't really even call Christians they

484
00:23:37,130 --> 00:23:34,950
were people with various kind of belief

485
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:37,140
systems and I think I agree that's the

486
00:23:41,029 --> 00:23:38,610
starting point for anyone who's a

487
00:23:43,940 --> 00:23:41,039
Christian is to go back and look and

488
00:23:46,370 --> 00:23:43,950
understand that you know there were a

489
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:46,380
lot of different teachings going on and

490
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,720
even when you take Paul and he's going

491
00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:50,640
and writing these letters these aren't

492
00:23:56,180 --> 00:23:52,860
Christian groups he's writing letters

493
00:23:57,860 --> 00:23:56,190
from or enclaves they're groups that

494
00:23:59,120 --> 00:23:57,870
have already formed around some other

495
00:24:01,940 --> 00:23:59,130
beliefs and we're just trying to

496
00:24:03,740 --> 00:24:01,950
incorporate in this latest round of

497
00:24:06,409 --> 00:24:03,750
teaching so I mean the whole thing gets

498
00:24:09,409 --> 00:24:06,419
really messy the problem for the the

499
00:24:10,890 --> 00:24:09,419
hardened fundamentalist is believing

500
00:24:13,650 --> 00:24:10,900
anything

501
00:24:16,770 --> 00:24:13,660
is true outside of the Bible and why I

502
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:16,780
hope to to say is that you know there's

503
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:18,880
a grain of truth in all religions and

504
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:21,250
it's that grain of truth is about love

505
00:24:29,070 --> 00:24:25,210
well it's universal oh it was really

506
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:29,080
what Jesus taught was love denying you

507
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:31,110
know he was it he was constantly in

508
00:24:38,010 --> 00:24:33,850
conflict with the religious people there

509
00:24:44,550 --> 00:24:38,020
and I try to let Christians know that

510
00:24:47,730 --> 00:24:44,560
there's how wrong it is to to be you

511
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:47,740
know have such fixed beliefs even fixed

512
00:24:53,070 --> 00:24:50,170
beliefs in near-death experiences it

513
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:53,080
could be easy to have a fixed belief to

514
00:24:59,640 --> 00:24:55,840
say well the near-death experiences show

515
00:25:01,920 --> 00:24:59,650
that reincarnation is true well you know

516
00:25:04,020 --> 00:25:01,930
even though that's my belief I you can't

517
00:25:06,510 --> 00:25:04,030
really say that it would be a religion

518
00:25:10,260 --> 00:25:06,520
if I said that although the evidence

519
00:25:13,890 --> 00:25:10,270
points that way I think it's important

520
00:25:17,970 --> 00:25:13,900
to keep an open mind to everything you

521
00:25:20,820 --> 00:25:17,980
know the possibility that you know what

522
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:20,830
what you have may be true but it may

523
00:25:25,410 --> 00:25:23,710
only be partially true that there may

524
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:25,420
there's a bigger picture of all the

525
00:25:31,890 --> 00:25:28,210
night I suspect that's the case with

526
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:31,900
near-death phenomena that there is a

527
00:25:37,820 --> 00:25:35,200
bigger picture that near-death

528
00:25:40,860 --> 00:25:37,830
experiences have very difficult time

529
00:25:43,740 --> 00:25:40,870
taught you know quantifying themselves

530
00:25:46,890 --> 00:25:43,750
you know how do you how do you put into

531
00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:46,900
words this ineffable experience

532
00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:49,660
let's talk about your book nothing

533
00:25:55,950 --> 00:25:52,710
better than death insights from 60 to

534
00:25:58,350 --> 00:25:55,960
profound near-death experiences I found

535
00:26:01,080 --> 00:25:58,360
the book very interesting there's some

536
00:26:04,380 --> 00:26:01,090
great near-death experience cases that I

537
00:26:06,510 --> 00:26:04,390
think will suck anyone into this topic

538
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:06,520
because they're just profound and like

539
00:26:11,220 --> 00:26:08,890
so many of these stories they just have

540
00:26:15,090 --> 00:26:11,230
this human aspect to them that you can't

541
00:26:17,940 --> 00:26:15,100
escape from without being deeply moved

542
00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:17,950
by but your book also has I think a

543
00:26:25,139 --> 00:26:21,900
great section on questions and answers

544
00:26:27,659 --> 00:26:25,149
where you take your expiry

545
00:26:30,899 --> 00:26:27,669
and running this website near death calm

546
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:30,909
and kind of pull out some of the most

547
00:26:34,349 --> 00:26:33,129
frequent questions that people ask and

548
00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:34,359
then you go ahead and try and answer

549
00:26:38,690 --> 00:26:36,190
those tell us a little bit about this

550
00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:38,700
book and what you sought to do with it

551
00:26:45,299 --> 00:26:42,940
well the first half was mostly

552
00:26:48,089 --> 00:26:45,309
presenting the near-death experience and

553
00:26:51,269 --> 00:26:48,099
I do have a large section at the end

554
00:26:53,489 --> 00:26:51,279
that now reconciling the near-death

555
00:26:57,149 --> 00:26:53,499
experience with Christianity and

556
00:26:59,820 --> 00:26:57,159
vice-versa and I do try to present the

557
00:27:03,810 --> 00:26:59,830
information that you know you can't

558
00:27:06,299 --> 00:27:03,820
limit God to a book or to an experience

559
00:27:07,709 --> 00:27:06,309
like in the near-death experience while

560
00:27:11,909 --> 00:27:07,719
I was in the middle of writing that book

561
00:27:14,849 --> 00:27:11,919
my mom died and it was kind of ironic

562
00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:14,859
because the time titled my book of

563
00:27:20,999 --> 00:27:18,070
course was you know nothing better than

564
00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:21,009
death but it's threw me off a little bit

565
00:27:25,859 --> 00:27:23,679
that yeah I know there's nothing better

566
00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:25,869
than death but not for the people who

567
00:27:31,379 --> 00:27:28,960
are you know have to stay hanging around

568
00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:31,389
and you deal with it and so that was

569
00:27:38,190 --> 00:27:35,200
another experience for me and in fact my

570
00:27:41,249 --> 00:27:38,200
I'm in the middle of writing my next

571
00:27:42,989 --> 00:27:41,259
book which should have been the first

572
00:27:45,299 --> 00:27:42,999
title sort of then there's nothing

573
00:27:46,139 --> 00:27:45,309
better than love I think we all have to

574
00:27:50,969 --> 00:27:46,149
come at it

575
00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:50,979
know why you know you had these

576
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:53,080
experiences or why you were thrown

577
00:27:57,810 --> 00:27:55,570
another curve you know just as you're

578
00:28:00,089 --> 00:27:57,820
writing this book but hey that's your

579
00:28:04,349 --> 00:28:00,099
story what I want to do is appeal to

580
00:28:08,310 --> 00:28:04,359
folks who want to get to the bottom of

581
00:28:11,909 --> 00:28:08,320
things in a logical systematic fashion

582
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:11,919
you do have to reject some things in

583
00:28:17,190 --> 00:28:14,129
order to let some other things in so

584
00:28:19,829 --> 00:28:17,200
sometimes is an uncomfortable process so

585
00:28:23,159 --> 00:28:19,839
let's be okay with the uncomfortableness

586
00:28:25,139 --> 00:28:23,169
of challenging those beliefs whether

587
00:28:29,249 --> 00:28:25,149
they be on the side of religious people

588
00:28:31,469 --> 00:28:29,259
or atheists and scientific minded people

589
00:28:35,369 --> 00:28:31,479
don't we have to kind of crack some eggs

590
00:28:38,529 --> 00:28:35,379
to make the omelet you know and and my

591
00:28:40,419 --> 00:28:38,539
message to atheist

592
00:28:42,639 --> 00:28:40,429
you know it doesn't matter what you

593
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:42,649
believe religion and stuff doesn't

594
00:28:47,529 --> 00:28:45,200
matter on the other side it's deeds not

595
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:47,539
Creed's that's what I hear a lot of our

596
00:28:51,730 --> 00:28:49,730
life here is important you know we're

597
00:28:54,549 --> 00:28:51,740
here to do a job we're all on a mission

598
00:28:57,669 --> 00:28:54,559
from God as a Blues Brothers would say

599
00:28:59,769 --> 00:28:57,679
and it doesn't matter what the year an

600
00:29:03,310 --> 00:28:59,779
atheist or a religious person you're

601
00:29:06,580 --> 00:29:03,320
accepted on the other side whoever you

602
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:06,590
are I'm with you for the most part in

603
00:29:11,489 --> 00:29:08,240
the overall message who can argue with

604
00:29:14,279 --> 00:29:11,499
that but the deeds versus Creed's thing

605
00:29:17,289 --> 00:29:14,289
sometimes I think we want to downplay

606
00:29:19,419 --> 00:29:17,299
the relationship between the two and

607
00:29:21,909 --> 00:29:19,429
especially I tell you for me personally

608
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:21,919
I just have always approached things

609
00:29:28,239 --> 00:29:24,110
from kind of a big picture standpoint I

610
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:28,249
need to understand the Creed's before I

611
00:29:35,980 --> 00:29:31,610
can really embrace the deeds if you will

612
00:29:39,489 --> 00:29:35,990
yeah so becoming more accepting of the

613
00:29:43,299 --> 00:29:39,499
hard evidence that I am NOT a biological

614
00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:43,309
robot that there is a reality to the

615
00:29:48,940 --> 00:29:45,860
spirituality that I sometimes get little

616
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:48,950
glimpses of and that I see in other

617
00:29:55,090 --> 00:29:52,610
people helps me get to the deeds part

618
00:29:57,730 --> 00:29:55,100
because otherwise I can look at it very

619
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:57,740
rationally and say and I don't need that

620
00:30:03,909 --> 00:30:01,279
deed or I'm liking the stuff that I'm

621
00:30:05,950 --> 00:30:03,919
getting it's okay I mean I have more

622
00:30:08,919 --> 00:30:05,960
stuff and I can even draw a lines and

623
00:30:10,899 --> 00:30:08,929
say as long as I'm not too bad then it's

624
00:30:12,940 --> 00:30:10,909
okay isn't it there's a lot of people

625
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:12,950
like me who approach it from you know

626
00:30:17,950 --> 00:30:15,440
what I want to know the Creed I want to

627
00:30:20,409 --> 00:30:17,960
know the truth the scientific truth as

628
00:30:25,060 --> 00:30:20,419
close as I can get to it and then that

629
00:30:27,730 --> 00:30:25,070
in turn informs my deeds you know and

630
00:30:30,430 --> 00:30:27,740
that's why I like I view my uncle who is

631
00:30:33,399 --> 00:30:30,440
the atheist worshiping God you might say

632
00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:33,409
in quotes in a manner in his own way

633
00:30:39,159 --> 00:30:36,590
through his love of science and his love

634
00:30:41,859 --> 00:30:39,169
of physics and Radiology's or

635
00:30:45,070 --> 00:30:41,869
radiologists and in evolution heating

636
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:45,080
now his passion is for nature and

637
00:30:50,210 --> 00:30:47,570
science and physics and I think that

638
00:30:52,789 --> 00:30:50,220
approach is very spiritual

639
00:30:54,860 --> 00:30:52,799
again I can't quite agree because I've

640
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:54,870
seen this so often with these scientists

641
00:30:59,840 --> 00:30:56,970
I mean if they have a fundamentally

642
00:31:01,519 --> 00:30:59,850
flawed aspect to their theory like

643
00:31:04,129 --> 00:31:01,529
consciousness which is always the one

644
00:31:06,860 --> 00:31:04,139
that we bump into then I'm not all that

645
00:31:09,409 --> 00:31:06,870
interested in what else they have to say

646
00:31:11,749 --> 00:31:09,419
even if they've discovered some truth

647
00:31:13,909 --> 00:31:11,759
about some particle or about some

648
00:31:16,190 --> 00:31:13,919
subatomic reaction or something like

649
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:16,200
that I think it's very possible that

650
00:31:22,539 --> 00:31:19,200
people can be incredibly well educated

651
00:31:26,779 --> 00:31:22,549
on a narrow subject and really be rather

652
00:31:28,909 --> 00:31:26,789
oblivious to these larger truths and

653
00:31:31,580 --> 00:31:28,919
realities that they don't even explore

654
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:31,590
and as far as science being a high

655
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:33,570
priest in what religion that's not a

656
00:31:39,169 --> 00:31:35,490
religion that I want to I want to be a

657
00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:39,179
part of I I kind of believe what Edgar

658
00:31:47,450 --> 00:31:43,129
Cayce once theorized and that is that

659
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:47,460
religion and science metaphysics or

660
00:31:55,369 --> 00:31:51,450
philosophy are approaching a point of

661
00:31:58,039 --> 00:31:55,379
merger and we're getting closer and

662
00:32:00,889 --> 00:31:58,049
closer to that point of merger where

663
00:32:04,330 --> 00:32:00,899
science does become kind of a mystical

664
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:04,340
and I see that in quantum physics I

665
00:32:08,869 --> 00:32:06,240
understand where you're coming from on

666
00:32:11,090 --> 00:32:08,879
that I just think there also has to be a

667
00:32:13,159 --> 00:32:11,100
little bit of skepticism associated with

668
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:13,169
that when I hear about this paradigm

669
00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:15,090
change I always go back and have had

670
00:32:18,799 --> 00:32:16,470
some guests who talk about the great

671
00:32:21,980 --> 00:32:18,809
spiritualist movement in the early 1900s

672
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:21,990
hey everything was poised and ready for

673
00:32:26,330 --> 00:32:24,210
a paradigm shift that paradigm shift

674
00:32:28,220 --> 00:32:26,340
didn't happen and as a matter of fact

675
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:28,230
reversed and it went back in Reverse and

676
00:32:32,090 --> 00:32:30,330
has been for the last hundred years I

677
00:32:36,639 --> 00:32:32,100
think it's a real mistake to

678
00:32:40,639 --> 00:32:36,649
underestimate the appeal of the

679
00:32:43,639 --> 00:32:40,649
materialist reductionist philosophy and

680
00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:43,649
to kind of underestimate how much it

681
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:46,769
permeates our culture our lives in every

682
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:48,720
way so just because a few people have

683
00:32:53,899 --> 00:32:50,730
written best-selling books and made it

684
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:53,909
on to the Oprah circuit if you will that

685
00:32:59,539 --> 00:32:56,370
doesn't mean that there's going to be an

686
00:33:02,180 --> 00:32:59,549
end to the the war machine or the

687
00:33:03,170 --> 00:33:02,190
depleted uranium that we're going to

688
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:03,180
shoot over and

689
00:33:07,730 --> 00:33:05,370
area or or any of the rest of this stuff

690
00:33:09,770 --> 00:33:07,740
I mean me the only thing I can conclude

691
00:33:12,530 --> 00:33:09,780
is that it's about personal

692
00:33:15,230 --> 00:33:12,540
transformation and it's about embracing

693
00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:15,240
that and in the process of embracing

694
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:17,910
that then I think trying to come in

695
00:33:22,730 --> 00:33:20,310
contact with other people and create

696
00:33:25,970 --> 00:33:22,740
that community but beyond that I'm very

697
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:25,980
leery of drawing any conclusions about

698
00:33:32,510 --> 00:33:29,310
our current situation and how that might

699
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:32,520
look in some larger time scale of

700
00:33:38,270 --> 00:33:35,250
history because history hasn't been very

701
00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:38,280
kind to this kind of a paradigm shift at

702
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:39,990
least the history that we know of

703
00:33:43,570 --> 00:33:43,050
yeah I have to hand it to you that you

704
00:33:47,780 --> 00:33:43,580
deal with

705
00:33:50,570 --> 00:33:47,790
a lot of skeptics who are materialists

706
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:50,580
and you fully understand them far more

707
00:33:56,780 --> 00:33:54,480
than I do and I do know that that

708
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:56,790
they're very reluctant to hear anything

709
00:34:04,990 --> 00:33:59,760
has smacks of religion well right now we

710
00:34:06,140 --> 00:34:05,000
see both sides religions and hardcore

711
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:06,150
scientists

712
00:34:13,490 --> 00:34:09,210
materialists are kicking and screaming

713
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:13,500
but this point of merger is is happening

714
00:34:18,380 --> 00:34:16,290
right now especially and I think in

715
00:34:21,650 --> 00:34:18,390
quantum physics when you know you can't

716
00:34:25,780 --> 00:34:21,660
it's there's a mystical aspect to it

717
00:34:28,660 --> 00:34:25,790
that can't really be denied but the

718
00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:28,670
materialists and right now and and

719
00:34:35,330 --> 00:34:31,110
religionists are taking and screaming

720
00:34:39,650 --> 00:34:35,340
but I see it they were there'll be no

721
00:34:42,910 --> 00:34:39,660
more faith involved because the Newton

722
00:34:47,090 --> 00:34:42,920
knowledge will come in that is

723
00:34:50,270 --> 00:34:47,100
inescapable yeah I mean you will be as a

724
00:34:54,620 --> 00:34:50,280
religious person will have to abandon

725
00:34:57,530 --> 00:34:54,630
whatever erroneous face they have or

726
00:34:58,370 --> 00:34:57,540
their dogma and the same with the

727
00:35:00,200 --> 00:34:58,380
scientists

728
00:35:02,750 --> 00:35:00,210
you could be right I always think of

729
00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:02,760
Dean Radin who I interviewed a long time

730
00:35:07,070 --> 00:35:05,400
ago on this show and he said something

731
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:07,080
he's very prophetic and I know it's

732
00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:09,090
going to be true he said you know all

733
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:10,800
these people talk about paradigm shift

734
00:35:15,980 --> 00:35:12,570
and I'm paraphrasing here obviously he

735
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:15,990
said what happens is there's the ship

736
00:35:19,580 --> 00:35:18,480
and then everyone goes oh yeah that's

737
00:35:21,590 --> 00:35:19,590
what I've been talking about all along

738
00:35:24,650 --> 00:35:21,600
you know so there isn't this big

739
00:35:27,620 --> 00:35:24,660
dramatic thing it's that scientists will

740
00:35:29,420 --> 00:35:27,630
find cover in saying a bunch of

741
00:35:31,730 --> 00:35:29,430
different things and oh yeah but we knew

742
00:35:34,460 --> 00:35:31,740
that we accepted that and you might even

743
00:35:35,630 --> 00:35:34,470
go further and say well with this new

744
00:35:37,730 --> 00:35:35,640
paradigm shift

745
00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:37,740
everybody will be right beside the

746
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:40,440
materials will say well yeah the

747
00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:41,610
near-death experience

748
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:43,920
there's nothing paranormal about it

749
00:35:50,630 --> 00:35:47,610
because we know now that consciousness

750
00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:50,640
survives death right right we redefine

751
00:35:55,970 --> 00:35:53,250
consciousness in some way yeah and

752
00:35:58,730 --> 00:35:55,980
that's that's the key really when it

753
00:36:02,000 --> 00:35:58,740
comes down to it quantifying what

754
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,010
consciousness is but I think if we can

755
00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:04,560
establish that consciousness does

756
00:36:09,350 --> 00:36:06,720
survive bodily death and we're getting

757
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:09,360
close to that I think I agree on both

758
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:13,890
sides whatever whoever has any Dogma in

759
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:15,570
that regard I agree with you now I've

760
00:36:20,090 --> 00:36:17,490
always been very negative about the

761
00:36:22,820 --> 00:36:20,100
paradigm shift thing for all the reasons

762
00:36:25,490 --> 00:36:22,830
that that I just said but III think

763
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:25,500
you're right I get the sense that the

764
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:28,350
mounting data from near-death experience

765
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:31,170
science and the way that that data syncs

766
00:36:36,460 --> 00:36:34,320
with findings in other areas is going to

767
00:36:41,020 --> 00:36:36,470
make it harder and harder for the

768
00:36:44,690 --> 00:36:41,030
consciousness folks to find cover in the

769
00:36:47,359 --> 00:36:44,700
reductionist biological robot mean and I

770
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:47,369
see that already in my conversations

771
00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:49,830
with some of the leading consciousness

772
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,200
researchers they know the old thing

773
00:36:57,020 --> 00:36:54,720
doesn't fit they don't know what the new

774
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:57,030
ground is they're trying to find this

775
00:37:02,210 --> 00:36:59,520
emergent property of consciousness thing

776
00:37:04,940 --> 00:37:02,220
which is really just a stepping stone

777
00:37:06,890 --> 00:37:04,950
that fails miserably if you really think

778
00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:06,900
it through and I think they're going to

779
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:09,180
have to find a new ground and the only

780
00:37:14,270 --> 00:37:11,280
ground to be is this idea that

781
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:14,280
consciousness in some way we we don't

782
00:37:19,099 --> 00:37:16,650
completely understand does survive

783
00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:19,109
bodily death and I agree with you that's

784
00:37:25,340 --> 00:37:22,560
a whole new ball game that's gonna be a

785
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:25,350
big step and I hope that would happen

786
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:28,890
soon I hope the results from the aware

787
00:37:32,780 --> 00:37:29,610
study

788
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:32,790
and the immortality project then again

789
00:37:37,790 --> 00:37:34,770
now we have this new study about rats

790
00:37:40,580 --> 00:37:37,800
having the this explosion of energy in

791
00:37:42,290 --> 00:37:40,590
their brain and you know two

792
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:42,300
materialists they say ha

793
00:37:46,220 --> 00:37:44,010
that's a near-death experience they're

794
00:37:48,590 --> 00:37:46,230
just a brain thing we covered that a

795
00:37:52,190 --> 00:37:48,600
little bit on this show and when that

796
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:52,200
broke that latest quote-unquote science

797
00:37:58,210 --> 00:37:55,410
news story to me it's just a repeated

798
00:38:02,330 --> 00:37:58,220
pattern of some little insignificant

799
00:38:05,350 --> 00:38:02,340
news being just splattered all over the

800
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:05,360
science media as some attempt to kind of

801
00:38:10,310 --> 00:38:08,310
counterbalance the trend towards

802
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:10,320
near-death experience science but what I

803
00:38:14,930 --> 00:38:12,210
wrote and shared with people was the

804
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:14,940
interview that I did a while back with

805
00:38:21,950 --> 00:38:19,200
dr. Locke machala from George Washington

806
00:38:24,050 --> 00:38:21,960
University who found and proposed the

807
00:38:26,810 --> 00:38:24,060
same thing that there's this burst of

808
00:38:30,530 --> 00:38:26,820
electrical activity in the brain just

809
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:30,540
before it completely shuts down and what

810
00:38:33,710 --> 00:38:32,490
I found and I repeated the quote is I

811
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:33,720
went through one of the near-death

812
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:35,490
experience researchers is one of the

813
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:36,960
leading folks and I won't mention the

814
00:38:41,030 --> 00:38:38,610
name but he said that's perhaps the

815
00:38:43,850 --> 00:38:41,040
dumbest explanation for your death

816
00:38:46,610 --> 00:38:43,860
experience yet and I'd say the same

817
00:38:50,060 --> 00:38:46,620
holds true for this rat study because

818
00:38:53,210 --> 00:38:50,070
obviously what it what it completely

819
00:38:55,550 --> 00:38:53,220
misses the boat on it's two things one

820
00:38:58,940 --> 00:38:55,560
is that we already know that these

821
00:39:02,240 --> 00:38:58,950
near-death experiences happen at times

822
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:02,250
other than this peak period that they've

823
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:04,560
studied in the rats but more importantly

824
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:07,770
that we also know that these near-death

825
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:10,650
experiences happen in brains that are

826
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:14,490
not at all under trauma or stress and it

827
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:16,800
happened to people when they're landing

828
00:39:20,630 --> 00:39:18,690
a plane and they think the plane might

829
00:39:23,060 --> 00:39:20,640
die and they can have it so it really

830
00:39:25,340 --> 00:39:23,070
doesn't correlate very well with the

831
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:25,350
experience and to me the real story is

832
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:29,850
how can we yet again take a non-story

833
00:39:36,260 --> 00:39:32,850
take science that doesn't really fit and

834
00:39:39,380 --> 00:39:36,270
how can we crank it out and prop it up

835
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:39,390
to look like it really provides some

836
00:39:43,370 --> 00:39:42,110
kind of legitimacy to this

837
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:43,380
counterbalance

838
00:39:47,910 --> 00:39:45,490
mountain of evidence for near-death

839
00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:47,920
experience science yeah yeah I agree

840
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:50,110
that and it's it's a matter of

841
00:39:55,170 --> 00:39:52,210
perspective to I think you know the

842
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:55,180
materialist see the rat study and they

843
00:39:58,380 --> 00:39:55,930
say ha

844
00:40:01,560 --> 00:39:58,390
they say reason for hope they say the

845
00:40:03,870 --> 00:40:01,570
same thing that the Christians do when a

846
00:40:06,570 --> 00:40:03,880
Christian near-death experience

847
00:40:09,090 --> 00:40:06,580
apologist comes along and says wait a

848
00:40:12,110 --> 00:40:09,100
minute this near-death experience stuff

849
00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:12,120
it doesn't mean that we have to abandon

850
00:40:18,210 --> 00:40:15,100
Christianity and to a certain extent I I

851
00:40:20,490 --> 00:40:18,220
kind of take issue with holding folks by

852
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:20,500
the hand there because but it just

853
00:40:25,770 --> 00:40:23,290
doesn't seem sincere and in the same way

854
00:40:27,570 --> 00:40:25,780
I don't think the Christian apologists

855
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:27,580
are being sincere when they look at

856
00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:29,410
near-death experience science and they

857
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:31,270
don't own up and say wait a minute

858
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:33,850
this directly contradicts in some

859
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:36,850
fundamental ways Christian doctrine and

860
00:40:42,750 --> 00:40:39,130
in the same way I don't think it's it's

861
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:42,760
legit right for that scientists to do

862
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:44,170
the same thing with these they're not

863
00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:46,210
they're not looking through Galileo's

864
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:50,710
telescope yet exactly and it really is

865
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:53,770
on both sides it's a matter of ignorance

866
00:40:59,280 --> 00:40:56,650
so Kevin it's it's amazing work that

867
00:41:01,560 --> 00:40:59,290
you've done can you tell us what might

868
00:41:03,780 --> 00:41:01,570
be coming up for folks at near-death

869
00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:03,790
calm I know you work on the website a

870
00:41:08,430 --> 00:41:06,310
lot and are always updating it with new

871
00:41:10,530 --> 00:41:08,440
information and you also mention this

872
00:41:14,340 --> 00:41:10,540
new book that you have coming out when

873
00:41:18,050 --> 00:41:14,350
might we see that well it's gonna be

874
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:18,060
slow in coming because I'm actually

875
00:41:27,030 --> 00:41:21,370
involved in a lot more webmaster stuff

876
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:27,040
then I am writing new articles but as I

877
00:41:32,490 --> 00:41:29,290
am updating my website I'm updating a

878
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:32,500
lot of my my main articles that are more

879
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:35,440
popular I guess you might say and of

880
00:41:42,690 --> 00:41:38,770
course right now the deal is doctors who

881
00:41:46,410 --> 00:41:42,700
have NDP's like doctor even Alexander

882
00:41:49,050 --> 00:41:46,420
you know and I think there the testimony

883
00:41:50,780 --> 00:41:49,060
of neuroscientists who and there are a

884
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:50,790
number of them that I want to present

885
00:41:56,370 --> 00:41:53,130
but when we could at number of

886
00:41:58,339 --> 00:41:56,380
neuroscientists having these experiences

887
00:42:01,410 --> 00:41:58,349
and acknowledging him then you know

888
00:42:04,529 --> 00:42:01,420
that's what I'm interested in and also

889
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:04,539
the near-death experiences of presidents

890
00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:06,970
like Ronald Reagan had a near-death

891
00:42:14,460 --> 00:42:11,200
experience and Lincoln supposedly had

892
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:14,470
one how it changed his life but these

893
00:42:19,229 --> 00:42:17,410
special categories of people having

894
00:42:23,150 --> 00:42:19,239
near-death experiences fascinate me a

895
00:42:26,519 --> 00:42:23,160
lot well Kevin your website is really

896
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:26,529
extremely important to this field I hope

897
00:42:29,940 --> 00:42:28,210
that people who haven't been there for a

898
00:42:32,910 --> 00:42:29,950
while will revisit

899
00:42:34,799 --> 00:42:32,920
near-death calm and reacquaint

900
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:34,809
themselves with the information I'm glad

901
00:42:39,390 --> 00:42:36,670
to hear that you're constantly updating

902
00:42:41,339 --> 00:42:39,400
it I think that's that's vital it's been

903
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:41,349
great having you on thanks so much for

904
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:43,650
joining me well it's my pleasure I

905
00:42:49,140 --> 00:42:46,720
appreciate it thanks again to Kevin for

906
00:42:50,609 --> 00:42:49,150
joining me today on skeptic oh so I have

907
00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:50,619
one question to tee up from this

908
00:42:53,609 --> 00:42:51,910
interview and it's a little bit

909
00:42:55,799 --> 00:42:53,619
different from the kind of questions

910
00:42:58,769 --> 00:42:55,809
I've asked in the past because I want

911
00:43:01,319 --> 00:42:58,779
you to share with me on the forum or in

912
00:43:04,309 --> 00:43:01,329
the comment section the website your

913
00:43:07,410 --> 00:43:04,319
personal journey through the near-death

914
00:43:10,620 --> 00:43:07,420
experience data so what's some of the

915
00:43:13,170 --> 00:43:10,630
first information you came across what

916
00:43:15,749 --> 00:43:13,180
did you do when you read about someone's

917
00:43:17,759 --> 00:43:15,759
story or you read about a researcher who

918
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:17,769
published some research where did that

919
00:43:22,109 --> 00:43:19,599
take you where did that lead you and

920
00:43:24,660 --> 00:43:22,119
then maybe where are you now in terms of

921
00:43:28,049 --> 00:43:24,670
your conclusions about near-death

922
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:28,059
experience science so if you feel up to

923
00:43:31,950 --> 00:43:29,920
it let's take this discussion in a

924
00:43:34,319 --> 00:43:31,960
little personal direction this time

925
00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:34,329
around and see where that leads us of

926
00:43:39,089 --> 00:43:36,460
course the place to answer that question

927
00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:39,099
and share your journey with us is either

928
00:43:44,190 --> 00:43:41,710
on The Skeptical website right there in

929
00:43:46,410 --> 00:43:44,200
the comment section or by clicking on

930
00:43:48,509 --> 00:43:46,420
over to the forum and joining the

931
00:43:53,579 --> 00:43:48,519
discussion over there The Skeptical

932
00:43:56,009 --> 00:43:53,589
website is at ske p TI ke o calm there

933
00:43:58,469 --> 00:43:56,019
you'll also find of course over 200

934
00:44:01,469 --> 00:43:58,479
previous episodes of skeptic Oh a link

935
00:44:04,229 --> 00:44:01,479
where you can subscribe on iTunes also

936
00:44:05,819 --> 00:44:04,239
an email and a Facebook link to me well

937
00:44:08,819 --> 00:44:05,829
that's going to do it for right now I

938
00:44:10,740 --> 00:44:08,829
have several interesting shows coming up

939
00:44:12,810 --> 00:44:10,750
variety atop

940
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:12,820
I hope you'll stay with me for all of